Reproductive Freedom

QuietWOW · January 12th, 2001, 10:05 PM

What are your views on abortion? Let's share and discuss

DrHilieWho · February 24th, 2001, 12:20 PM

What really makes me angry is that legalizing abortion is hailed as something that's <i>needed</i> for safety's sake. 39 women died from abortion complications the last year they were illegal. (25 more women died from legal abortions in NY and CA) What happened to the thousands of women being butchered by back alley operations?

"How many deaths were we talking about when abortion was illegal? In NARAL[National Assoc. for Repeal of Abortion Laws], we generally emphasized the frame of the individual case, not the mass statistics, but when we spoke of the latter it was always ?5,000 to 10,000 deaths a year.? I confess that I knew the figures were totally false, and I suppose the others did too if they stopped to think of it. But in the ?morality? of our revolution, it was a useful figure, widely accepted, so why go out of our way to correct it with honest statistics? The overriding concern was to get the laws eliminated, and anything within reason that had to be done was permissible."
B. Nathanson, Aborting America, Doubleday, 1979, p. 193

39 to 5000. That's a big difference.

Has safety been an issue that determined whether you were pro-life or pro-choice? What other factors are important to you?

tupi · February 24th, 2001, 03:38 PM

In 1969 my sister got pregnant. She was forced to quit school, pregnant girls weren't allowed. Her boyfriend finished though. She was forced by our father and his father to marry this other kid, who had no intention of being a faithful husband. She had a baby to care for by the time she was 16. She never graduated from school, was divorced with a baby to raise by the time she was 18. If she'd been allowed the option of aborting that fetus, then she might have had a life that she planned not one that was foisted upon her by well-meaning people who were more concerned about social standards than realities. That child was born as a punishment to her for having sex irresponsibly in a time when responsible sex was never discussed. She faced up to her responsibilities, but she was never given the option of making a choice. No child should be born as a punishment to its mother. No girl should be forced to bear a child that she's ashamed of. No person should be told they must follow the demands of a society that will condemn them for making a sexual mistake. Reality is that she paid the price of having a baby, her ex-husband didn't. He went on to college and had another family and never bothered to see his son or pay child support again. Does she feel that way? Beats me. I feel that way. She was a cute happy kid who made a mistake.

Ultimately, the abortion issue IMHO comes down to a point of identification. I do not believe a fetus that is incapable of life outside the womb is a living person. NARAL does. To repeal this legislation would not stop abortion. Nothing will ever stop abortion. It has been here since before the days of Hamarabi. To make it illegal would be forcing otherwise law abiding citizens to break the law and they would.

DrHilieWho · February 25th, 2001, 12:12 AM

Your sister's lack of choice goes beyond legal options. Adoption was legal, but it doesn't sound like she was given that opportunity either. Those situations are unfortunate for everyone involved...every pregnancy where a child isn't wanted is very sad.

You are absolutely right when you say that abortions will always happen, but is that a substantial reason for them to be legal? Do we treat any other issue that way? I can't think of one off the top of my head, but I'll work on it. (((tupi)))

Lou · February 25th, 2001, 02:39 AM

NARAL = National Abortion Rights Action League

http://www.naral.org/

tupi · February 25th, 2001, 09:53 AM

Yes, Hilie, in my opinion, knowing LOTS of women will continue to seek abortions out of desperation is enough to make them non-criminal. Are the voices of those women not important? I personally know about 15 women who've had abortions for a variety of reasons. Adoption was an option for some of them, but they chose not to go through the adoption process...which is very difficult. It sounds easy, but believe me, it isn't. For many women abortion is the best choice, and they don't deserve to be criminalized because of that choice.

My sister was punished. Adoption was not an option she was ever offered. She made her bed and she was by god made to sleep in it! Another friend of mine got pregnant at 16. Her parents forced her to give that child up for adoption. She was sent to a home for girls in New Orleans and was not ever allowed to see the child after it was born. These are real people in real circumstances. That's they way things were 30 years ago, and this kind of punishment against women will raise it's ugly head once again if abortion is criminalized.

MommaD · February 25th, 2001, 11:46 AM

Should abortion be legal, you ask? My question would be, what are the benefits to making it illegal?

Everyone must decide for herself at what point the growing number of cells in her womb becomes a human being. Some women choose to believe that the joining of the sperm with the egg creates a human being with rights of its own. Others choose to believe that, until those growing cells are viable outside the womb, they are simply cells that are growing together at a rapid rate with the end goal of becoming a human being.

We are free to choose how we believe. Our beliefs guide us, should we be faced with the unpleasant reality of an unwanted pregnancy. That would not change should abortion become illegal. What would change is the method by which we could abort. Those women for whom money is plentiful would still acquire safe abortions in sanitary conditions by traveling to countries with legal abortion. Those women who find that money is more difficult to come by would be faced with visiting someone who may or may not have access to sterile conditions; someone who may or may not have any medical knowledge or training; someone who may or may not have a clue what they're doing. Those women who find that money is not available would become criminals and could be jailed.

You claim only "39 women died from abortion complications the last year they were illegal". I suggest that only 39 deaths were officially attributed to complications of illegal abortions. I suggest that the number was perhaps MUCH higher, but the deaths were attributed to other causes. If your loved one died of complications of an illegal abortion, would you want that to be her legacy? Would you want people remembering that she died because she broke the law? Or would you do everything in your power to hide that fact and perhaps have her death listed as due to "complications of pregnancy" or "unknown causes" or some other vague cause? I think many women's families hid the real cause of their deaths, which makes any valid statistics difficult to acquire.

DrHilieWho · February 25th, 2001, 01:34 PM

Thanks Lou for pointing out that NARAL is a pro-choice organization. During the 60's and 70's they were working to repeal the laws making abortions illegal.

I have never said that all abortion should be illegal. I am pro-choice as far as women having the right to choose what action to take when faced with unforseen circumstances. Mothers and babies develop diseases during pregnancy. I have seen several friends go through abortions, and they were not given adequate counceling to either make the decision or deal with it.

Because all of society has changed, I think it's unrealistic to say illegalizing abortion would bring back old views on unplanned pregnancies. Right now there is more help for single and teen mothers than ever. There are many assistance programs for parents and pregnant mothers, and those would be forced to increase if abortion was restricted. It might take a little more from our taxes, but I'd rather have my money going to give children the chance they deserve than to some of the other areas are taxes are spent on.

MommaD brought up an excellent point. Any statistics surrounding illegal abortion are questionable, but my point was that there was a severe difference in what people were reporting and what they actually thought was reasonable. Something else she said brought up a question though. What was the punishment for self-aborting before Roe vs Wade? Were women being jailed? I haven't been able to find anything on it.

Good discussion.

March 7th, 2001, 01:36 PM

Just wanted to clarify that when NARAL began it was called National Association to Repeal Abortion Law (when abortions were illegal) It later became the National Abortion Rights Leauge and is now the National Abortion and Reproductive Rights League.

creative_scrawl · November 10th, 2001, 12:03 PM

I wasn't going to reply, but I've changed my mind. I saw two people whom I love dearly decide on an abortion. I didn't agree with it, but I know what I saw. These two people were tested...and both of them went through the process. I saw them cry and hang on to one another.

I've never hid my feelings about how I feel, but they are overcoming insurmountable odds -- and they stayed together. They lost a child that day and I've seen them grieve...I lost a potential neice or nephew and sometimes I still grieve.

I won't deny being pro-life, but neither did I want either one of the people I love to suffer. I saw how they struggled with a decision -- and it was not made lightly. So whose right...me for being pro-life...or them for making a decision...and being together for the process? They would never do that again and although I was against the decision, that has not changed my love for these two people.

I know that until a person is in that situation it is hard to say what one will do. I will say this though: when I thought I was pregnant by my own father, I made an active decision that I would have an abortion. Let me state for the record I wasn't and I didn't...but I probably would have. I was a child who was in an abusive situation...and to this day I still wonder about special circumstances. It's just hard to say what we would do if it were us...until it is us.

I've seen both sides make valid points and I won't get into that, but it's a hot topic for me simply because of where I've been...and what I've seen. Didn't mean to jump in and just blather...so on that note, have a good day

pegasus · October 31st, 2004, 05:32 AM

is even ONE womans death acceptable? Two?? Three?What number would be small enuf? Zero? even then, i think not!!

JANE20/20 · February 28th, 2011, 11:54 PM

I think that it is such a private decision....and a very serious one...for me personally...I believe that "once I've made my bed...then I have to lay in it"...meaning that if I get pregnant...then I have to have the baby....there is no other decision for me....but for other women...I feel they have the right to choose.....but I do have a problem with some women that have abused that right to choose....and kept having unprotected sex....and continued to get pregnant...and then chose... time after time to terminate the pregnancy...there is absolutley no excuse for that......

February 24th, 2001, 12:20 PM	#2
DrHilieWho Registered User Join Date: Feb 2001 Posts: 244	What really makes me angry is that legalizing abortion is hailed as something that's <i>needed</i> for safety's sake. 39 women died from abortion complications the last year they were illegal. (25 more women died from legal abortions in NY and CA) What happened to the thousands of women being butchered by back alley operations? "How many deaths were we talking about when abortion was illegal? In NARAL[National Assoc. for Repeal of Abortion Laws], we generally emphasized the frame of the individual case, not the mass statistics, but when we spoke of the latter it was always ?5,000 to 10,000 deaths a year.? I confess that I knew the figures were totally false, and I suppose the others did too if they stopped to think of it. But in the ?morality? of our revolution, it was a useful figure, widely accepted, so why go out of our way to correct it with honest statistics? The overriding concern was to get the laws eliminated, and anything within reason that had to be done was permissible." B. Nathanson, Aborting America, Doubleday, 1979, p. 193 39 to 5000. That's a big difference. Has safety been an issue that determined whether you were pro-life or pro-choice? What other factors are important to you? __________________ Visit my husband's new webpage for gameaholics! Timesplitters2 Network!

February 25th, 2001, 12:12 AM	#4
DrHilieWho Registered User Join Date: Feb 2001 Posts: 244	Your sister's lack of choice goes beyond legal options. Adoption was legal, but it doesn't sound like she was given that opportunity either. Those situations are unfortunate for everyone involved...every pregnancy where a child isn't wanted is very sad. You are absolutely right when you say that abortions will always happen, but is that a substantial reason for them to be legal? Do we treat any other issue that way? I can't think of one off the top of my head, but I'll work on it. (((tupi))) __________________ Visit my husband's new webpage for gameaholics! Timesplitters2 Network!

February 25th, 2001, 02:39 AM	#5
Lou Idealist Join Date: Feb 2001 Posts: 1,159	For the record... NARAL = National Abortion Rights Action League http://www.naral.org/ __________________ We must travel in the direction of our fear. --John Berryman

February 25th, 2001, 01:34 PM	#8
DrHilieWho Registered User Join Date: Feb 2001 Posts: 244	Thanks Lou for pointing out that NARAL is a pro-choice organization. During the 60's and 70's they were working to repeal the laws making abortions illegal. I have never said that all abortion should be illegal. I am pro-choice as far as women having the right to choose what action to take when faced with unforseen circumstances. Mothers and babies develop diseases during pregnancy. I have seen several friends go through abortions, and they were not given adequate counceling to either make the decision or deal with it. Because all of society has changed, I think it's unrealistic to say illegalizing abortion would bring back old views on unplanned pregnancies. Right now there is more help for single and teen mothers than ever. There are many assistance programs for parents and pregnant mothers, and those would be forced to increase if abortion was restricted. It might take a little more from our taxes, but I'd rather have my money going to give children the chance they deserve than to some of the other areas are taxes are spent on. MommaD brought up an excellent point. Any statistics surrounding illegal abortion are questionable, but my point was that there was a severe difference in what people were reporting and what they actually thought was reasonable. Something else she said brought up a question though. What was the punishment for self-aborting before Roe vs Wade? Were women being jailed? I haven't been able to find anything on it. Good discussion. __________________ Visit my husband's new webpage for gameaholics! Timesplitters2 Network!

November 10th, 2001, 12:03 PM	#10
creative_scrawl Registered User Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: still trying to figure that out. grin Posts: 65	I wasn't going to reply, but I've changed my mind. I saw two people whom I love dearly decide on an abortion. I didn't agree with it, but I know what I saw. These two people were tested...and both of them went through the process. I saw them cry and hang on to one another. I've never hid my feelings about how I feel, but they are overcoming insurmountable odds -- and they stayed together. They lost a child that day and I've seen them grieve...I lost a potential neice or nephew and sometimes I still grieve. I won't deny being pro-life, but neither did I want either one of the people I love to suffer. I saw how they struggled with a decision -- and it was not made lightly. So whose right...me for being pro-life...or them for making a decision...and being together for the process? They would never do that again and although I was against the decision, that has not changed my love for these two people. I know that until a person is in that situation it is hard to say what one will do. I will say this though: when I thought I was pregnant by my own father, I made an active decision that I would have an abortion. Let me state for the record I wasn't and I didn't...but I probably would have. I was a child who was in an abusive situation...and to this day I still wonder about special circumstances. It's just hard to say what we would do if it were us...until it is us. I've seen both sides make valid points and I won't get into that, but it's a hot topic for me simply because of where I've been...and what I've seen. Didn't mean to jump in and just blather...so on that note, have a good day __________________ GIFT: Great Intellectual Female Today :-) Just don't ask about tomorrow

January 12th, 2001, 10:05 PM	#1
QuietWOW WOW Host Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: UK Posts: 70	What are your views on abortion? Let's share and discuss

February 24th, 2001, 03:38 PM	#3
tupi Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Posts: 144	In 1969 my sister got pregnant. She was forced to quit school, pregnant girls weren't allowed. Her boyfriend finished though. She was forced by our father and his father to marry this other kid, who had no intention of being a faithful husband. She had a baby to care for by the time she was 16. She never graduated from school, was divorced with a baby to raise by the time she was 18. If she'd been allowed the option of aborting that fetus, then she might have had a life that she planned not one that was foisted upon her by well-meaning people who were more concerned about social standards than realities. That child was born as a punishment to her for having sex irresponsibly in a time when responsible sex was never discussed. She faced up to her responsibilities, but she was never given the option of making a choice. No child should be born as a punishment to its mother. No girl should be forced to bear a child that she's ashamed of. No person should be told they must follow the demands of a society that will condemn them for making a sexual mistake. Reality is that she paid the price of having a baby, her ex-husband didn't. He went on to college and had another family and never bothered to see his son or pay child support again. Does she feel that way? Beats me. I feel that way. She was a cute happy kid who made a mistake. Ultimately, the abortion issue IMHO comes down to a point of identification. I do not believe a fetus that is incapable of life outside the womb is a living person. NARAL does. To repeal this legislation would not stop abortion. Nothing will ever stop abortion. It has been here since before the days of Hamarabi. To make it illegal would be forcing otherwise law abiding citizens to break the law and they would.

February 25th, 2001, 09:53 AM	#6
tupi Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Posts: 144	Yes, Hilie, in my opinion, knowing LOTS of women will continue to seek abortions out of desperation is enough to make them non-criminal. Are the voices of those women not important? I personally know about 15 women who've had abortions for a variety of reasons. Adoption was an option for some of them, but they chose not to go through the adoption process...which is very difficult. It sounds easy, but believe me, it isn't. For many women abortion is the best choice, and they don't deserve to be criminalized because of that choice. My sister was punished. Adoption was not an option she was ever offered. She made her bed and she was by god made to sleep in it! Another friend of mine got pregnant at 16. Her parents forced her to give that child up for adoption. She was sent to a home for girls in New Orleans and was not ever allowed to see the child after it was born. These are real people in real circumstances. That's they way things were 30 years ago, and this kind of punishment against women will raise it's ugly head once again if abortion is criminalized.

February 25th, 2001, 11:46 AM	#7
MommaD Registered User Join Date: Feb 2001 Posts: 57	Should abortion be legal, you ask? My question would be, what are the benefits to making it illegal? Everyone must decide for herself at what point the growing number of cells in her womb becomes a human being. Some women choose to believe that the joining of the sperm with the egg creates a human being with rights of its own. Others choose to believe that, until those growing cells are viable outside the womb, they are simply cells that are growing together at a rapid rate with the end goal of becoming a human being. We are free to choose how we believe. Our beliefs guide us, should we be faced with the unpleasant reality of an unwanted pregnancy. That would not change should abortion become illegal. What would change is the method by which we could abort. Those women for whom money is plentiful would still acquire safe abortions in sanitary conditions by traveling to countries with legal abortion. Those women who find that money is more difficult to come by would be faced with visiting someone who may or may not have access to sterile conditions; someone who may or may not have any medical knowledge or training; someone who may or may not have a clue what they're doing. Those women who find that money is not available would become criminals and could be jailed. You claim only "39 women died from abortion complications the last year they were illegal". I suggest that only 39 deaths were officially attributed to complications of illegal abortions. I suggest that the number was perhaps MUCH higher, but the deaths were attributed to other causes. If your loved one died of complications of an illegal abortion, would you want that to be her legacy? Would you want people remembering that she died because she broke the law? Or would you do everything in your power to hide that fact and perhaps have her death listed as due to "complications of pregnancy" or "unknown causes" or some other vague cause? I think many women's families hid the real cause of their deaths, which makes any valid statistics difficult to acquire.

March 7th, 2001, 01:36 PM	#9
Bloomer Guest Posts: n/a	Just wanted to clarify that when NARAL began it was called National Association to Repeal Abortion Law (when abortions were illegal) It later became the National Abortion Rights Leauge and is now the National Abortion and Reproductive Rights League.

October 31st, 2004, 05:32 AM	#11
pegasus , a gr8 peer support Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: NH Posts: 50	is even ONE womans death acceptable? Two?? Three?What number would be small enuf? Zero? even then, i think not!!

February 28th, 2011, 11:54 PM	#12
JANE20/20 Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 67	I think that it is such a private decision....and a very serious one...for me personally...I believe that "once I've made my bed...then I have to lay in it"...meaning that if I get pregnant...then I have to have the baby....there is no other decision for me....but for other women...I feel they have the right to choose.....but I do have a problem with some women that have abused that right to choose....and kept having unprotected sex....and continued to get pregnant...and then chose... time after time to terminate the pregnancy...there is absolutley no excuse for that......