Afghanistan

Jennifer23 · February 4th, 2011, 10:06 PM

George W. Bush pushed us into Afghanistan to get Bin Laden, and then said, no - we're going into Iraq. So, he created 2 wars that didn't have to be created. Iraq wasn't behind the 9/11 attacks, and yet look at all the money we've wasted there.
I voted for Obama, but we have to get out of there. It's time for us to stop being the World's policeman. Let's get out of Iraq and Afghanistan. Just look at the Middle East now!

Elusive Unicorn · February 5th, 2011, 12:43 AM

Sigh it will not happen. It's all about the oil. If they didn't have it, we would pull our guys home so fast your head would spin. Militry and goverment are all about spending money. Look how much they spend on hammer, nails, and toilet seats. Gesh if they went to Lowes or Wal*mart it would cost them less. Could just see a guy at Wal*mart looking for out of stock hammer. Sale assocate tells them the genral came in and bought them all here and at the warehouse. I realy wish they would pull our troops. The PR from this is making us look bad.

Wolf_angel · February 5th, 2011, 08:21 AM

I understand where both of you are coming from Jennifer and Elusive. Yet please remember what's it about...The Oil! The military are doing what they are ordered to do. I should know since being a former army brat; army wife; and now an Navy Mom. I agree the USA shouldnt be the policemen of the World yet many of those same people from those countries are escaping here to the USA. There are some who dont want no part of their country and etc yet there are a few who are for their country. I figure that if those of the secondary leave their country to come here, well they can go back! The USA was started from people leaving the home country because of persecutions and etc.
Thus said I stand with leaving those countries Iraq and Afghanistan. Come home and take care of our own first! Yet I do support my son and others like him for doing what they are told to do. Hugs BTW not meant to offend anyone, its just my honest opinion!

Jennifer23 · February 5th, 2011, 01:52 PM

Wolfie, you're totally right, and I've always supported the men and women that are doing their jobs as military personnel. I just wish that they wouldn't have to . . . .

Elusive Unicorn · February 6th, 2011, 12:20 AM

((((((((Wolife))))))))) I do support our troops and pray for their safety. You are right in they are doing as they are told. They are soldiers and follow orders. We have some that are worriors. These are the ones that think and sometimes question orders. We as a people do not raise worriors anymore. Soldiers are easier for them to tell what to do. Well I am jealous that they get to blow things up and get paid for it. That has to be a great stress releaver. I had some people that I used to work with and we dicussed what would be the most stress releving jobs. So when you are realy mad at someone imagine if you had a job were you destrored a whole building. That would be so much better then taking a deep breath.

Wolf_angel · February 6th, 2011, 12:26 AM

(((( Jennifer Elusive ))))))))))) Thanks! LOL Blowing things up! LOL

Jennifer23 · February 6th, 2011, 09:05 PM

Wolfie, I love/hate politics. That's why I've been saying do away with the political parties and just vote for people! Vote for people with no party affiliation, but because they just stand for the stuff that we, as individuals support.

Elusive Unicorn · February 7th, 2011, 09:50 AM

/me still wants to put all da politions on a rocket into outerspace. Dang NASA and their budget cuts!!!!

Wolf_angel · February 8th, 2011, 10:26 AM

Tis what I do when voting! LOL Elusive

moniker · February 14th, 2011, 02:53 PM

The problem with Iraq and Afghanistan is that we can't just leave. You can't run into a country, depose the government, blow up the infrastructure and then walk away. With Syrian terrorists attacking civilians and hoping to gain power, we need to re-establish a government that will work. While we worry about things like stability, other problems also need to be addressed...basic stuff you and I take for granted. Theip sanitation system doesn't exist...trash piles up in the streets and so does sewage. Saddam had filled in a wetland/stream in part of northern Iraq in order to control the residents, we're trying to reinstate that water so the residents can have their own. Railroad tracks are destroyed, buildings collapsed, schools partially falling apart. We cannot leave it this way.

In Afghanistan, the police force (especially in Kabul) is incredibly broke. Pay for cops is non-existant, so in order to make the job more appealing they stopped doing background checks. Because of this, insurgents with al Qaeda have enlisted in the police force, stole uniforms and body armor, then fled back to the mountains. Like Iraq, they also have falling infrastructure (war-related).

Should we have gone in? Is Bush a war-monger? Aren't we just there for oil? These questions don't matter. The question that matters is, "How can we leave a country we destroyed and pretend nothing happened?"

Elusive Unicorn · February 14th, 2011, 04:57 PM

I guess that is a good question. So lets say we fix everything. Then their economy is booming. Will they pay us back or like Japan are they going to stiff us the bill? I know it sounds weird but there are so many countries that owe the US money. If the ones that are back on their feet would pay us back then we would have more money to help with things. Yes we should fix what we broke. Yet we need to teach them to stand on their own. Give a man a fish and thats one meal. Teach a man to fish and he could feed the whole village.

moniker · February 14th, 2011, 07:44 PM

I think our now, now, now world has us forgetting just how long things take. We are certainly teaching them to fish...the US is not an imperialist nation; it prefers to have stake in some countries but not actually govern them. The Iraqi people are excited to vote and do vote. They are excited to enlist in the Iraqi Army and do so. They are excited to be part of the police force and they do. In fact, much of the actual fighting now is done by the Iraqis, with the US as a helpful "show of force" to prevent a running over of the fledgling nation.

As for paying us back...I don't think they owe us anything. We were the ones that destroyed their country, their infrastructure, their government. That was all us. We owe it to them to rebuild...you break it, you buy it. Iraq owes us nothing. We're the ones that shat all over their country, not the other way around. That's like paying for the medical expenses for a stranger you hit with your car, then asking, "So...now that I paid for your medical expenses, what are you going to do for me?" The person would look at you like you're crazy because the only reason the medical expenses existed was because you ran them over. The only reason we're spending so much time and effort rebuilding Iraq is because we destroyed it. How can you say that Iraq owes us anything? How do you see the situation?

Elusive Unicorn · February 14th, 2011, 08:30 PM

Okay but what about Japan? We did bomb them and brake some of their stuff but they hit us frist. So they should have to pay us back. By the way have you seen what we are owed by other countries. It could be used for health care, schools and other such things here. We have homeless here and we need reform at home,but if all our money is tied up overseas then what do we do? Fine we can give everyone else our money and to heck with the downtroden at home. We should fix our own country too. We may be a power house but we are no longer number one at everything. There are too many thimgs to list. We get so worried about everyone else that we forget to worry about ourselves. Man just like my kids worried about someone else and not paying attention to the trouble they are getting into.

moniker · February 14th, 2011, 08:56 PM

We should fix our country as well, I'm not saying that we shouldn't. What I am saying is that we cannot run into a country, blow it to hell, and then walk away. I think that bringing up Japan is irrelevant here because we're talking about Afghanistan and Iraq...which are two very different situations than Japan attacking us and we retaliate. But if you want to bring up Japan:
-we removed their ability to start a war again, making it unconstitutional
-we removed the military power from their leader, making him a symbol instead
-all the territory Japan acquired after 1894 was taken away and given back to the people or to the allies. We actually still have a duty station in Okinawa, which we used to own (gave it back to the Japanese in the 1970's)
-we executed hundreds of military officers after they were tried for war crimes
-we forced Japan to adopt human rights
-land ownership was removed
-we used them for our anti-communist goals, stationing more troops in Japan, posting anti-communist propaganda, and even trying to create a military force that we had said was unconstitutional

In other words, we didn't just hand them money. We took their land, land they had acquired long before WWII, re-wrote their constitution, stripped them of military power, took part of their country for a military duty station and even tried to use them in the Cold War. Japan became an arm of the United States, not just a new, free Japan.

Elusive Unicorn · February 14th, 2011, 10:16 PM

Sigh anyway you look at it getting out will not be as easy as going in. Clean up is always a b****. Just ask a maid. Sorry if I offend you in any way. I do like to debate sometimes I get carried away. If we did all that to them I do not even want to think what they would have done to us if we had lost. It is likily that we will not be out of Afghanistan for years.So we sould just suport our troops and pray they come home safe. Hopefuly when we do get out it will be a better country.

February 4th, 2011, 10:06 PM	#1
Jennifer23 Jennifer23 Join Date: Dec 2010 Posts: 3,187	Afghanistan George W. Bush pushed us into Afghanistan to get Bin Laden, and then said, no - we're going into Iraq. So, he created 2 wars that didn't have to be created. Iraq wasn't behind the 9/11 attacks, and yet look at all the money we've wasted there. I voted for Obama, but we have to get out of there. It's time for us to stop being the World's policeman. Let's get out of Iraq and Afghanistan. Just look at the Middle East now!

February 5th, 2011, 12:43 AM	#2
Elusive Unicorn Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Utica,NY Posts: 806	Sigh it will not happen. It's all about the oil. If they didn't have it, we would pull our guys home so fast your head would spin. Militry and goverment are all about spending money. Look how much they spend on hammer, nails, and toilet seats. Gesh if they went to Lowes or Walmart it would cost them less. Could just see a guy at Walmart looking for out of stock hammer. Sale assocate tells them the genral came in and bought them all here and at the warehouse. I realy wish they would pull our troops. The PR from this is making us look bad. __________________ Any and all typos I may make are in the name of science. My tests will be conclued when ever I get around to it.

February 5th, 2011, 08:21 AM	#3
Wolf_angel A survivor of chaos Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Where my heart is Posts: 3,147	I understand where both of you are coming from Jennifer and Elusive. Yet please remember what's it about...The Oil! The military are doing what they are ordered to do. I should know since being a former army brat; army wife; and now an Navy Mom. I agree the USA shouldnt be the policemen of the World yet many of those same people from those countries are escaping here to the USA. There are some who dont want no part of their country and etc yet there are a few who are for their country. I figure that if those of the secondary leave their country to come here, well they can go back! The USA was started from people leaving the home country because of persecutions and etc. Thus said I stand with leaving those countries Iraq and Afghanistan. Come home and take care of our own first! Yet I do support my son and others like him for doing what they are told to do. Hugs BTW not meant to offend anyone, its just my honest opinion! __________________ May you walk in the shadow of the Great Spirit~To help others is a special gift we can either give or take~The more you give the more you receive~

February 6th, 2011, 12:20 AM	#5
Elusive Unicorn Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Utica,NY Posts: 806	((((((((Wolife))))))))) I do support our troops and pray for their safety. You are right in they are doing as they are told. They are soldiers and follow orders. We have some that are worriors. These are the ones that think and sometimes question orders. We as a people do not raise worriors anymore. Soldiers are easier for them to tell what to do. Well I am jealous that they get to blow things up and get paid for it. That has to be a great stress releaver. I had some people that I used to work with and we dicussed what would be the most stress releving jobs. So when you are realy mad at someone imagine if you had a job were you destrored a whole building. That would be so much better then taking a deep breath. __________________ Any and all typos I may make are in the name of science. My tests will be conclued when ever I get around to it.

February 6th, 2011, 12:26 AM	#6
Wolf_angel A survivor of chaos Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Where my heart is Posts: 3,147	(((( Jennifer Elusive ))))))))))) Thanks! LOL Blowing things up! LOL __________________ May you walk in the shadow of the Great Spirit~To help others is a special gift we can either give or take~The more you give the more you receive~

February 5th, 2011, 01:52 PM	#4
Jennifer23 Jennifer23 Join Date: Dec 2010 Posts: 3,187	Wolfie, you're totally right, and I've always supported the men and women that are doing their jobs as military personnel. I just wish that they wouldn't have to . . . .

February 6th, 2011, 09:05 PM	#7
Jennifer23 Jennifer23 Join Date: Dec 2010 Posts: 3,187	Wolfie, I love/hate politics. That's why I've been saying do away with the political parties and just vote for people! Vote for people with no party affiliation, but because they just stand for the stuff that we, as individuals support.

February 7th, 2011, 09:50 AM	#8
Elusive Unicorn Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Utica,NY Posts: 806	/me still wants to put all da politions on a rocket into outerspace. Dang NASA and their budget cuts!!!! __________________ Any and all typos I may make are in the name of science. My tests will be conclued when ever I get around to it.

February 8th, 2011, 10:26 AM	#9
Wolf_angel A survivor of chaos Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Where my heart is Posts: 3,147	Tis what I do when voting! LOL Elusive __________________ May you walk in the shadow of the Great Spirit~To help others is a special gift we can either give or take~The more you give the more you receive~

February 14th, 2011, 02:53 PM	#10
moniker Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 44	The problem with Iraq and Afghanistan is that we can't just leave. You can't run into a country, depose the government, blow up the infrastructure and then walk away. With Syrian terrorists attacking civilians and hoping to gain power, we need to re-establish a government that will work. While we worry about things like stability, other problems also need to be addressed...basic stuff you and I take for granted. Theip sanitation system doesn't exist...trash piles up in the streets and so does sewage. Saddam had filled in a wetland/stream in part of northern Iraq in order to control the residents, we're trying to reinstate that water so the residents can have their own. Railroad tracks are destroyed, buildings collapsed, schools partially falling apart. We cannot leave it this way. In Afghanistan, the police force (especially in Kabul) is incredibly broke. Pay for cops is non-existant, so in order to make the job more appealing they stopped doing background checks. Because of this, insurgents with al Qaeda have enlisted in the police force, stole uniforms and body armor, then fled back to the mountains. Like Iraq, they also have falling infrastructure (war-related). Should we have gone in? Is Bush a war-monger? Aren't we just there for oil? These questions don't matter. The question that matters is, "How can we leave a country we destroyed and pretend nothing happened?"

February 14th, 2011, 04:57 PM	#11
Elusive Unicorn Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Utica,NY Posts: 806	I guess that is a good question. So lets say we fix everything. Then their economy is booming. Will they pay us back or like Japan are they going to stiff us the bill? I know it sounds weird but there are so many countries that owe the US money. If the ones that are back on their feet would pay us back then we would have more money to help with things. Yes we should fix what we broke. Yet we need to teach them to stand on their own. Give a man a fish and thats one meal. Teach a man to fish and he could feed the whole village. __________________ Any and all typos I may make are in the name of science. My tests will be conclued when ever I get around to it.

February 14th, 2011, 07:44 PM	#12
moniker Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 44	I think our now, now, now world has us forgetting just how long things take. We are certainly teaching them to fish...the US is not an imperialist nation; it prefers to have stake in some countries but not actually govern them. The Iraqi people are excited to vote and do vote. They are excited to enlist in the Iraqi Army and do so. They are excited to be part of the police force and they do. In fact, much of the actual fighting now is done by the Iraqis, with the US as a helpful "show of force" to prevent a running over of the fledgling nation. As for paying us back...I don't think they owe us anything. We were the ones that destroyed their country, their infrastructure, their government. That was all us. We owe it to them to rebuild...you break it, you buy it. Iraq owes us nothing. We're the ones that shat all over their country, not the other way around. That's like paying for the medical expenses for a stranger you hit with your car, then asking, "So...now that I paid for your medical expenses, what are you going to do for me?" The person would look at you like you're crazy because the only reason the medical expenses existed was because you ran them over. The only reason we're spending so much time and effort rebuilding Iraq is because we destroyed it. How can you say that Iraq owes us anything? How do you see the situation?

February 14th, 2011, 08:30 PM	#13
Elusive Unicorn Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Utica,NY Posts: 806	Okay but what about Japan? We did bomb them and brake some of their stuff but they hit us frist. So they should have to pay us back. By the way have you seen what we are owed by other countries. It could be used for health care, schools and other such things here. We have homeless here and we need reform at home,but if all our money is tied up overseas then what do we do? Fine we can give everyone else our money and to heck with the downtroden at home. We should fix our own country too. We may be a power house but we are no longer number one at everything. There are too many thimgs to list. We get so worried about everyone else that we forget to worry about ourselves. Man just like my kids worried about someone else and not paying attention to the trouble they are getting into. __________________ Any and all typos I may make are in the name of science. My tests will be conclued when ever I get around to it.

February 14th, 2011, 08:56 PM	#14
moniker Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 44	We should fix our country as well, I'm not saying that we shouldn't. What I am saying is that we cannot run into a country, blow it to hell, and then walk away. I think that bringing up Japan is irrelevant here because we're talking about Afghanistan and Iraq...which are two very different situations than Japan attacking us and we retaliate. But if you want to bring up Japan: -we removed their ability to start a war again, making it unconstitutional -we removed the military power from their leader, making him a symbol instead -all the territory Japan acquired after 1894 was taken away and given back to the people or to the allies. We actually still have a duty station in Okinawa, which we used to own (gave it back to the Japanese in the 1970's) -we executed hundreds of military officers after they were tried for war crimes -we forced Japan to adopt human rights -land ownership was removed -we used them for our anti-communist goals, stationing more troops in Japan, posting anti-communist propaganda, and even trying to create a military force that we had said was unconstitutional In other words, we didn't just hand them money. We took their land, land they had acquired long before WWII, re-wrote their constitution, stripped them of military power, took part of their country for a military duty station and even tried to use them in the Cold War. Japan became an arm of the United States, not just a new, free Japan.

February 14th, 2011, 10:16 PM	#15
Elusive Unicorn Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Utica,NY Posts: 806	Sigh anyway you look at it getting out will not be as easy as going in. Clean up is always a b****. Just ask a maid. Sorry if I offend you in any way. I do like to debate sometimes I get carried away. If we did all that to them I do not even want to think what they would have done to us if we had lost. It is likily that we will not be out of Afghanistan for years.So we sould just suport our troops and pray they come home safe. Hopefuly when we do get out it will be a better country. __________________ Any and all typos I may make are in the name of science. My tests will be conclued when ever I get around to it.